let's talk about sex

[wildestranger]

I've been thinking a lot about sex lately. Writing of it, that is, and since I am having Trouble With Writing I thought I'd ask you.

We all know there are certain scenarios we like to read about, certain acts well expressed that work better than others, but what I'm interested in is how to play this with characterisation. Particularly in relation to Remus and Sirius. What kind of preferences do you think they have? I don't mean just things like Remus being alpha, whatever that means, but what do you think they like to do, and why? Does Sirius like to be tied up because as an aristocrat he is a kinky bugger? Because giving up control allows him to feel less fucked up? Does Remus like to do the buggering because he can't handle not being in control? And if so, what happens when he loses control?

Obiously we all have different Remuses and different Siriuses in our heads, maybe several different kinds, but what I want to know is how does the (or any) Remus and/or Sirius in your head behave in bed, and why?

My Remus likes to be in control, not only of what happens but also how much he shows of what he's feeling. He is anxious about making noises, or uncontrollable movements. He dreads losing control. Because he cannot control what happens to his body as a werewolf, because he has no mind in those moments and can't remember it later, he tries to ensure that this doesn't happen otherwise. But the threat of losing control is also something that fills him with adrenaline, and creates intense situations. And there is a certain temptation also to let go, to allow someone else do things to him, to not be in control of his reactions.

I see Remus as someone who doesn't touch people easily or naturally, but who, being aware of this, has taught himself to touch others, in sex and otherwise, to avoid being t unprepared and potentially humiliated in such moments. He has learned skills in bed because he thinks he should know these things, not merely as a by-product of fun and frolics. This allows him to maintain a cool persona, of someone who is unaffected by others. his skills are dependent on his sense of self.

Sirius, on the other hand, finds it easy to touch others, to seduce and be seduced, and he has learned what to do without conscious effort. Sirius is not as affected by being touched as Remus is, and is as happy to top as to bottom, it's all fun and his ego is not that involved.

Hmm. Clearly I have more to say about Remus' sex life than Sirius'. I'll just have to think more about it, then. *g*

All this so far is what I'm thinking they were like before Azkaban. After that, there are other things to take into consideration: How does Sirius feel about being embraced after living with dementors? What kind of relationships has Remus had in the twelve years, and how does this affect his preferences? What about trust, can either trust the other to take or give control after what happened?

All thoughts welcome. And, you know, porn to illustrate them. *g*

Comments

[kabeyk.livejournal.com]

I think Sirius likes being spanked.

Oh, you want a proper discussion? I'm bad at this.

I have to say, you've described my Remus pretty well already. Actually too well, I have nothing to add. Your Sirius is good too, but I also like the idea that his loveless family made it hard for him to touch and express his feelings, we all like him a little scared and soppy on the inside, don't we? Where would I get fic like that: Sirius all twisted and angsty about his sexuality, and scared, mmm.

Am useless, soz.

You're asking for comment-porn? I give you enough porn already. (Except that James bit I owe - I'll try to do that on Monday.)

Don't do post-Azkaban. :P

kxx

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Why does Sirius like to be spanked? And how? Give me details!

Your Remus is my Remus? Not sure whether I should be glad or afraid of a hive mind. *g*

But Sirius, scared, yes, I can see how that would work. The only thing with that is that I can see him being very easily being physical with people, both in punching people and giving manly claps on the back and stuff. Or maybe just punching is easy but he doesn't know what to do with affectionate touches. And Remus can't handle that either so what happens when they get together and start touching? Ooh, liking this thought.

[minnow-53.livejournal.com]

I've thought for a long time (before I was anywhere near this fandom) that it's very hard to write sex authentically because you're making a private act public. When you talk about it, you don't do so in any detail. (Or maybe other people do? I bet most don't.) I may have a kink about voyeurism, but then if I didn't feel sex was essentially private, voyeurism wouldn't be a deal. Maybe that's why I find it hard to write outright porn, because it's like something where you're not there. The erotic lies in glimpses of what is usually hidden, not in blow-by-blow (literally!) detail.

I see Remus as closing the door. Sirius is more of an exhibitionist. And none of this is any help, remotely. But you did ask.

^_^xx

[absinthe-lust.livejournal.com]

My Remus and Sirius (if I ever get anything written, that is, behave very differently (not just from each other, but from themselves) in different time periods in their lives: for me, it's pre-Azkaban, which includes Marauder-Era and the short-lived "after school, during the war," and post-Azkaban, which includes everything from PoA through OotP.

During Marauder-Era I see Remus as very shy and hesitant, which is due partially to his personality, and partially to inexperience. I see Sirius as more of the dominant of the two, not because of the experience he may or may not have had, but either because of his general demeanor, his kind of innate arrogance that I suppose all Blacks are born with, or what you mentioned above, his amazing versatility. After they become used to and more comfortable with each other, however, I see them both as having a lot of fun with it. [Of course, depending on when you see them getting together, there could also be pre and post-Prank sex, but I'm not going getting into that right now. Too much of an analysis for me, whew. :-P]

The after-school era I see sex between them being awkward [somehow even more so than when they first began,] and slightly angry. I suppose I think this because of the fact that they both suspected each other of being the spy, which led to their inability to communicate, and hence the awkward sex. Ehh. My thoughts aren't too developed on this time period.

Post-Azkaban: I see more conversation and less sex here, at least at first, but here Remus and Sirius are just beginning to trust each other again, and there are a lot of issues to be covered before they can get anywhere close to where they used to be. However, I see the first few times they have sex again being very hungry, and slightly clumsy, as they're still refamiliarizing. After awhile, though, I do see them maintaining a relationship very close to the one before everything happened.

Overall I mainly see Remus as being in sort of an emotional shell, and Sirius as the one who coaxes him out of it. Of course, there are always times when the roles are completely reversed.... Hmm. Maybe you can just strike that. I'm rambling now, I think.


Yes, that was my extremely long, somewhat nonsensical, almost entirely useless two cents. Also, it ended up being more about their relationship than about the sex. *sighs*

I just wish I was a talented enough artist to illustrate all of the mindporn I have. :-P

[absinthe-lust.livejournal.com]

Christ, that comment was OMG HUGE.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

I think you're right, about the privacy of it. I've read a few blow by blow acconts, and they are rarely that interesting. But what makes any kind of description attractive, for me at least, is the characterisation, and what does it mean when they do X or Y. The emotion and the tension are based on character, not on somebody's skill with a blowjob.

And yes, Sirius is an exhibitionist, bless his little heart. And it is because Remus likes to guard himself that I find it so interesting to see what happens when he dares to think about it. But then, I write mostly from Remus' POV so there are different kind of things going on with privacy and perspective. And often he likes to hide things from himself. *g*

[minnow-53.livejournal.com]

*wails* Sorry, I got it wrong: you didn't actually ask. You're interested in characterisation, and I hardly answered your question, though what I say at the end continues to apply.

To me, Remus always seems the more feminine of the two. Okay, canon dictates that Remus is at least bisexual, and if we read subtext into JKR's statements, Sirius is probably the gayer one. But that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Now I'm going to go and hide under the table for a while, or somewhere I can't reach a keyboard!

^_^xx

(rant alert)

[kabeyk.livejournal.com]

You know, being posh and bullied by his father makes him kinky and like to wear make-up and knickers and be spanked with a horse-whip while Remus calls him my-little-bitch. Duh.

Pretty much, but surely everyone likes Remus like that?

I can see both versions of Sirius, though I write him more your way, or somewhere in between the two. But now we're getting more into the area of characterisation and talking less about sex.

Someone made a very interesting point about I write Remus in the comments of my last fic actually (bear with me, it is relevant), about how I write him as very shy and introverted, compared with canon (where he seems confident in front of his classes and peers). I think I like to see him as being very shy when he started Hogwarts, and coming out of his shell as he made friends (for the first time) and got used to them. I like the idea that the marauders made him feel safe and confident, and grow as a person. So, I also like the idea that being with Sirius made him confident sexually.

Yes, someone should write that. Oh, now I want to write bolshy-but-scared-of-touching!Sirius pursued by by a growing-in-confidence!Remus, mmm.

kxx

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

I agree that it would be very different before and after Azkaban, and that afterwards it would have to be clumsy and awkward. I kind of like the idea of Remus being in a shell, and Sirius coaxing him out of it, and it's always fun to read the different things he does to get a reaction. *g*

I'm getting very interested in how they would play with the roles they've had, and how that would affect their relations, both in bed and otherwise.

Mindporn is always good. Especially when it gets so vivid that you can't help but put it to paper...;)

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Heh. The longer the better. :)

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Oh no, that exactly what I was hoping for. *pets* Characterisation in sex, and how it affects writing and how you like to read and write them.

I'm always a bit suspiscious of the word "feminine" (makes me start spouting feminist theory and that tends to kills the porn. *g*) but I see what you mean. Sirius would be more likely to behave in a more conventionally masculine way, and be more penis-centric (oh there goes the theory). And possibly more kinky as a result. ;)

Don't hide under the table! We must write away JKR's claims of Remus as straight, and you are part of the resistance! Vive la revolution!

Re: (rant alert)

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Yes. Especially to the porn, (you so should!) but also to Remus; I don't think the confidence came to him naturally, it's something he had to learn from knowing that he had friends. And then the prank would shatter that to some extent, and make him grow distant, and more aware of boundaries between himself and others. And then he'd establish a personal space that no one could enter except then Sirius would start badgering him and there would be terror-filled tension and mistrust and bitterness and really hot sex.

Ahem. yes.

[minnow-53.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love the idea of penis-centric gayness! I think there are fics to be written there.

Sorry, I mean 'feminine' simply in the traditional bottom sense. I always see Remus as the bottom. Even when I write about them being democratic about it, those are just words... In fact, to me, that's the dynamic between them. Top Sirius, bottom Remus, and JKR staring into her empty glass, wondering where it all went so wrong...

Sirius is definitely kinkier. Absolutely, without any doubt. You are giving me way too many ideas here. :D

^_^xx

Hmm... weighing in

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I think I like your Remus in terms of control, I can see that happening.

My Sirius? Just as how nyxfixx writes him.

How does Sirius feel about being embraced after living with dementors?

I don't know, because he hugs Harry (one armed hug) doesn't he? He also doesn't flinch from people when they stand too close. I can see him having issues, but then he wants sex and touch because it's denied to him. I don't see Azkaban as the sexual deviation and dementor rapes that fandom does.

It's more sensory deprivation, living in the chill of bad thoughts, and you just wanting to be touched afterwards just to feel warm again. I see it along the lines of topaz_eyes it comes to this and anniesj's Sing My Heart. I thought fleshdress had some interesting concepts in her Lusty Month of May entries though... with regards to sex post azkaban...especially the one with Remus hating Sirius' frame post azkaban and only had sex with him when he was in his wolf form...

What kind of relationships has Remus had in the twelve years, and how does this affect his preferences? What about trust, can either trust the other to take or give control after what happened?

I see it ala franticbabbles Motorcyle Dreams. Remus would have cared for others, but after that Halloween, he'd never be the same again. He'd love, but a part of him would always be missing, which is why I can't see Tonks (ala HBP)staying around for long, she'd feel the lack.

With regards to Sirius/Lupin - Unhappily Ever After by setismma (sp?) is how I see it happening. Or even topaz_eyes there's alot of unresolved issues that are thrashed out with magical violence and the lot. Then, towards the end when something is there, Sirius goes. *sigh* It appeals to the machocist in me.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Sirius is definitely kinkier. Absolutely, without any doubt. You are giving me way too many ideas here. :D

Heh, yes. See kabeyk's answer above for full kinkiness. Very amusing but also rather inspiring in terms of writing fic.

And you should definitely write that. *g*

Re: Hmm... weighing in

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about Remus not trusting people after James and Lily were killed. Actually, I don't think he would have trusted people very much before that, but even less afterwards. As for Tonks, I can see her somebody too insensitive (certainly in HBP) to see that there might be somethingmore, but I would hope Remus wouldn't settle for that. Then again, she might develop.

It's an interesting thing about touching after Azkaban. I can see why Sirius would need to be touched, as a reassurance, as comfort, but I can also see an argument for why he would need distance and privacy. It's enjoyable to read how people negotiate that.

But thanks for commenting! :)

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Really, I just think Sirius ties the knots and Remus goes along with it...

You're giving me many ideas here...

Haven't read the book, I don't usually read horror (but perhaps this is not?) but I'll have a look. Thanks for the rec!

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I generally see Remus as very reluctant to lose control, and seeing sex as something that can be all about losing control in front of someone else, being completely unguarded, and he's not too comfortable with that. So I think Remus wants to be in charge during sex so he doesn't reveal too much. However, with Sirius, who knows him well in many ways, and learns how to get under his skin, he can let his guard down. And have his heart broken every time.

I tend to think of young Sirius as a hedonist - if it feels good, do it, as often as possible. But once he was committed, Sirius would never cheat (also, as an aside, he would never pursue Lily because Lily belongs to James), unless he were pushed to it by Remus's seeming indifference, and Remus would be afraid to call him on it because he'd take it as a sign of Sirius's boredom rather than a sign that Sirius wants to be called on it, wants to be reined in, wants someone to set some boundaries for him, that he can push against, because it's no fun being a rebel when there's nothing to rebel against.

On the other hand, given his mother's pureblood insanity, I can't imagine Sirius grew up believing homosexuality was okay - it doesn't end in breeding so it can't possibly be all right. So he might have some self-loathing to get over, which of course would give him something to bond with Remus about.

Once Sirius started suspecting Remus, if they were together, I imagine there was a lot of angry, desperate sex, where they really didn't understand what was going on with the other. I think that's their great tragedy as young men - as well as they know each other, each expects the other to respond the way he himself would and to understand the mixed signals he's sending out, but they just don't. It's like they're so close they can't see clearly.

During the twelve years Sirius was in Azkaban, I

After Azkaban, the dynamic is all turned around - Sirius is the one nobody wants around and Remus is the quiet voice of authority and reason people turn to for help (at least in the Order), and I'm sure Sirius sometimes resents that and chafes at it. I think Remus understands (and probably on some level enjoys) that turnabout, but also knows that Sirius needs time and more control than he did before.

I really love the renegotiation of the relationship post-Azkaban - that's what drew me to the pairing to begin with, the idea that even after everything, they could start to resolve all the years of pain and doubt. And then of course, Rowling went and killed Sirius, cutting that off just as things were getting better.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Whoops, got distracted. *g*


During the twelve years Sirius was in Azkaban, I think Remus probably had a lot of random, anonymous sex that didn't mean anything. He went out, had a few drinks, got laid, and moved on. I don't see him ever letting anyone as close as he let James, Sirius and Peter, and that's one reason I imagine he would get involved with Sirius again - because Sirius was one of the few people allowed in. After Sirius dies, I don't think anyone will ever get that close, even if/when Remus moves on to someone new. And I think that'd be frustrating for Tonks, who appears to not understand him at all.

[tesseract-5.livejournal.com]

Since I've written scenes from both view points, Sirius is more sure of himself, the one to do the active approach of the sex, but sees it more strightforwardly, a physical act.

Remus is all too aware of all the meanings of it, being the introspective guy he is, and has to shut off his brain to get into it. He can't pretend that things are ok as Sirius seems able to. This is probably a survival skill that Sirius had to learn at some point to get past Azkaban.

I don't know why, but I see the two more into petting and oral sex than full on fucking, perhaps due to Remus' aversion to the posibility of sharing blood accidentally? He's probably read WAY too many scary pamphlets and articles on this. uh.

[coconutswirl.livejournal.com]

*bounces in with her favourite word*

phallologocentric!!!!!!!! It's not quite penis-centric of course but you know Sirius would talk and talk and talk in a phallogocentric manner.

[minnow-53.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I deleted the comment, in my usual fit of paranoia, but the rec remains. It's not horror: it's a psychological novel about sex games, or it ends up like that. It's very unlike his usual stuff, though I have to say he's a far better writer (at his best) than he's given credit for being.

^_^xx

Distance/Privacy

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

But the thing is, in OoTP Sirius functioned best when people and noise were around. People were his prozaic, and he only went stir crazy with inactivity and grief because no-one was there. I think OoTP and even GoF (when he's seeing Harry in the caves and the rest of it) bears my theory out.

After all that vacum sucking silence, Sirius would want noise, which is why Dumbledore locking him up in Old Grimmauld Place didn't work out too well.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Although I would consider him more phallocentric than phallogocentric, more likely to show his focus in other ways than talking. Whereas Remus would be more interested in exploring polymorphous sexualities, rather than merely worship the cock.

*bounces with you in the joy of academic discourse*

[tesseract-5.livejournal.com]

ah, yes, but perhaps the whole betrayal spurred Remus to become monk-like, not trusting anyone, except Dumbledore. Sometimes I think that's why Remus is so distant, he didn't allow anyone back into his life after the big breakup and that's why it's so traumatic in Book 3 -- why he loses control, and why he's so distant from Tonks...