(no subject)

[wildestranger]

Newly married Ashlee Simpson is changing her name to Ashlee Wentz in honor of her husband, Fall Out Boy Pete Wentz.

"I think that that's something that a woman should do when they're marrying a man," she tells PEOPLE. "It's a tradition that I think is a great tradition."

Seriously? A great tradition? You mean the tradition which declares that a woman who has been her father's property now becomes her husbands' property, that tradition? The one that says a woman's identity should depend on her husband?

I just lost what little respect I had for Ashlee Simpson. And the fact that Pete Wentz seems to think it's a great idea, something that gratifies him, makes me think a lot less of him as well.

Comments

[saturnalia.livejournal.com]

Augh, yes. That made me headdesk as well. /o\

[secretsolitaire.livejournal.com]

UGH.

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

UGH. And did you see that story a while ago that proved that a man taking a woman's name is not easy? It took eight months and cost over 700 dollars opposed to twenty bucks and an afternoon.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

I didn't see that - sounds most disturbing. I've got a cousin whose husband changed his name to hers (because our family name is dying out) and I don't think that was iddifult for them to do but, of course, they don't live in the US.

[lyras.livejournal.com]

Ugh, this "tradition" really pisses me off. I hate that every single one of my married friends has taken her husband's surname - WHY? What's the point?

[secondsilk.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that this is reason number something on the list of why my mother is against the institution of marriage.

The percentage of women marrying who take their husband's name has gone up over the last twenty years, but I think it's because the women who would previously have kept their name simply aren't marrying their partners anymore.

Catherine Deveney, a columnist and professional ranter, wrote a column/rant on how stupid/patricarchal/out-dated/sexist it is that women take their husbands' names. The backlash she got was extraordinary. Men calling talk back and saying "I told my wife she didn't have to take my name when we married" which just proved her point.

[morebliss.livejournal.com]

It is 2008, right? Just checking...

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm going against the tide here but, seriously - why do you care? It's her name and she can call herself what she likes. It's one thing to be annoyed at women being required or expected to take her husband's names on marriage, but I'm having trouble seeing why pouring scorn on a woman for making that choice is much better than doing so if she refuses. If there's one thing that life and experience have taught me it's that the world is full of people willing to judge women (even complete strangers!) for their personal choices, whatever they may be. It's not my flavour of feminism anyway.

(I could be really mean and point out that you've tagged your "feminist rant" about Ashlee is under her husband's full name, not hers at all, but I'm far too agreeable for that. Oops. ;p)

[dissident.livejournal.com]

Of course she's free to do what she wants, but (for me anyway) what really got to me is how she honestly thinks it would be crazy or wrong not to take the husband's last name. Say what now?

[effervescent.livejournal.com]

I agree with this post. To me, it's more important that women have the choice, not that they're expected to do one or the other. If we expect all women to -not- change their names, that's just as bad as expecting them -to- change their names. Either way is forcing a woman to do what society expects her to do. Giving her the freedom to choose, however - that is a real goal.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Certainly she is entitled to make that choice, just as I am entitled to think less of her for doing so. ;) But seriously, I think there is a difference between asking women to participate in an inherently sexist tradition that devalues the concept of female identity, and asking them not to do that. That said, I wouldn't try to dictate her choice (or any other woman's), what she chooses to call herself is her business. I'm objecting to her claim that changing your name is something women should do and part of a great tradition.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

My rant is more about the fact that she does this because she feels that this is something women should do, and part of a great tradition, rather than the fact of her doing it in the first place. I would actually disapprove of her choice in any case, because I don't think these are neutral and equally valid options - choosing to take your husband's name suggests participating in an inherently sexist tradition which evaluates female identity in a different scale from male identity - but I wouldn't have made a post about it, and certainly she is entitled to make that choice, I wouldn't want to take that from her. It's the claims about a 'great tradition' that bother me, from someone who is, disturbing as it may seem, potentially a role model for younger women.

As for the tags, the Pete Wentz tag is there because there is also a point about Pete in this post - I wouldn't have used it if the post was entirely about Ashlee. And I refuse to have an Ashlee Simpson tag. :)

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

It's the claims about a 'great tradition' that bother me

Disagreeing with her opinions is perfectly valid, and I would also take issue with the quote about her saying that women "ought" to take their husbands' names on marriage. However, your OP and this comment go beyond that and into the sphere of passing judgement on her for her personal life choices, which I do find problematic.

It's the "disapproval" of her choices that troubles me. Who are you to approve or disapprove of a stranger's life choices? Who is anyone? The choices of any individual are far less an issue for feminism than the fact that women are constantly judged for their choices by the world at large, regardless of how those choices may affect anyone else. There's always someone to disapprove of how a woman dresses, who she sleeps with, her language, her choice of career, whether or not she marries, whether or not she has children, if she continues to work outside the home after having children and so on and so on. Women's lives would be a hell of a lot easier if everyone minded their own business a bit more and stopped passing judgement on them at every step.

And I refuse to have an Ashlee Simpson tag

Your journal, your choice, of course, but I hope you'll see the irony in the fact that you regularly talk about Ashlee, from an allegedly feminist perspective, but only ever as an adjunct to her husband.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

I agree with you to a certain point, because yes, passing judgement on random strangers is not something I want to support, and particularly, passing judgement on random strange women is something I would like to think I'm opposed to. However. There are two things that make me do so in this instance. One is that I would like to mka e a difference between disapproving of an institutional practice and telling an individual person what they should do. I wouldn't say this to Ashlee Simpson if I ever met her - I wouldn't assume that she would be interested to hear my opinions on her choices, and I seriously don't think it's any of my business what she does as a private individual. What she does as a public figure, though, is something I can respond to, to the extent that I would respond to any public statements made by public figures. Additionally, and this is the key point, would I disapprove of someone for making racist statements, or homophobic statements? Would I, in such a situation, feel entitled to judge someone on the basis of their comments, and to associate the individual with the institutional practice? Because I find that yes, I would do this, and I don't think that because it's a woman making sexist statements I should be less judgemental,as it were. So this is why.

As for the tags, I don't think I do talk about Ashlee Simpson that much - off the top of my head I can think of three posts that I've made which mention her. I refuse to get an Ashlee Simpson tag precisely because my comments on her tend not to be positive, and I don't want to have a tag just for bitching about her. And to be honest, I really don't consider her as an adjunct to her husband. I've only paid attention to her because of her connection to Pete Wentz, so it's likely that my comments on her will reflect that, and inlcude him and tehrefore my tag for Pete Wentz.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

I would respond to any public statements made by public figures

I think this is completely legitimate and, in the example you gave of someone making hateful comments, even necessary. If someone - anyone - makes public statements that you disagree with, it's absolutely your right to respond to them and offer criticism.

What I think crosses the line is passing judgement on their personal behaviour (assuming this behaviour isn't impacting on others - it would be quite all right to criticism someone for, say, beating people up or harassing others, of course). When someone makes a statement and you [generic you] express disagreement, that's discourse and there's nothing wrong with it. When someone makes a personal choice and you feel the need to voice your disapproval of it, I think that's being overly judgemental. Essentially, it's the difference between "I disagree with what Ashlee says here" and "I disapprove of her choice". The first is legitimate, the second not so much.

I've only paid attention to her because of her connection to Pete Wentz, so it's likely that my comments on her will reflect that

Going off at a bit of a tangent, this is part of what I find very off-putting about bandom. I'm not a part of it and don't have any real interest, but a lot of people on my flist are so I pick stuff up by association, and it bothers me that I almost never hear bandom folks talking about women other than as WAGs. In fact, your poll about hot bandom women a little while back jumped out at me because I'd not seen that discussion before. While I know that "interested in pretty boys" =/= "rabid vagina-hater" I find that a) the all-boys element puts me off because I really like women and b) I see posts on metafandom and the like that talk about bandom being all gender-transgressive and stuff, which only mention men and go all "LOL, gender-transgressive phallocentricity, O RLY?"

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

There are definitely male-centric aspects to bandom (as there is in any fandom), but there are also people making a concerted effort to redress the imbalance. There is a community for bandgirls, which includes both female members of bands in bandom, such as VickyT from Cobra Starship and Greta Salpeter from The Hush Sound, and various wives and girlfriends, some of whom are famous in their own right. I've got a slightly conflicted attitude towards the idea of talking about wives and girlfriends who aren't public performers themselves - mostly they seem utterly cool people and I love their characterisation in fanon, but I'm also uncomfortable about using private people in fiction (whereas boys in bands are clearly begging to have porn written about them *g*). I don't think this is a more sexist fandom then any other, and I'd even go so far as to say that there's a lot more squee over the women in bandom than I've seen in most other places.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

That is interesting. Obviously my perspective as an outsider looking in is skewed by the demographics of my flist, which is unlikely to be a representative selection. I would say I've never seen much overt sexism, in terms of bashing women and the like, which is certainly an improvement on some fandoms. (SPN fandom, I'm looking at you now.) It's surprised me because a lot of my friends-who-are-into-bandom are vocally squeeful about women in fandoms we share, but I really hear them talking about bandom women. I don't know that many bandom folk, though, so this may not really mean anything.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Also, your comments are very thought-provoking, and I really appreciate the opportunity to clarify my own thinking about this, so thanks for that!

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Thankee! It is nice to be able to have rational conversation about feminist issues, which rarely seems possible in LJ-land, unfortunately. :)

[ladyblack888.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU!
You know I love you, right?

[semielliptical]

That's appalling. If she wants to change her name, whatever, that's up to her, even though I don't like the "tradition." But doing it because a woman *should* - and then promoting that idea - that disgusts me, even though I don't know her at all.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's pretty much my point. I disapprove of the notion but it's absolutely her choice if she wants to do that. But promoting this idea? Highly disturbing.

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

Pete Wentz should become Pete Simpson. Isn't he supposed to be big on subverting gender srereotypes.

[archon-mentha.livejournal.com]

I kept my name when I was married, and I dealt with a lot of raised eyebrows and snide comments. My mail would often be addressed to me with my husband's last name anyway. Especially checks, so that I'd have to sign it that way to cash them. It was very frustrating.

Words - names - are very powerful. I just could never see giving up my identity like that. A lot of women I respect think differently, as is their right, but that's how I see it.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I always hated my original last name, so when I was 30 I changed it to a middle name some members of my mother's family used. Then when I was 35, I got married, and I took his last name and used the other one as a middle name. I don't feel like I gave up any identity, but that I added bonus identity.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

My objection is more to her doing it because she feels this is something that women should do. Your choice to change your name is absolutely your choice, and there are a number of good reasons to do that - I just don't think that being part of a 'great tradition' is one. I'm very keen on the right of any individual to choose how they are called (while I disapprove of Ashlee Simpson's reasons for doing this I would defend her right to do so), but there's a difference between making that choice because you feel that in your individual circumstances this is the best thing for you, and doing so because there's a normative practice that decrees how you should define yourself on gendered terms.

Um. Hope that makes sense?

[impysh.livejournal.com]

Hi, Ashlee, meet Lyn-Z. I think you have a lot to talk about.

[impysh.livejournal.com]

And I was totally going to leave it there, but then I had all these Tragic Thoughts about how Lyn-Z was angry about the erasure of her identity and career as a performer but Ashlee might not have been in the position where she was in control of that before, and the changing of her professional name to Simpson-Wentz is actually her positively creating an identity...

Even so, I can't see using your husband's name as a good professional move. And saying it's omething women 'should' do? Oh dear, Ashlee.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

It's her name and if she wants to change then it's up to her. My mum kept her name when she married my dad and doesn't even call herself Mrs. She always just puts Ms on stuff. My and my sister have double barrelled names. Chances are if and when I get married I won't change my name cos I like it but pffft. If someone else does, it's their choice. I'm not going to make a fuss.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

She's absolutely entitled to make that choice - even if I think it's a stupid idea, I think she's still entitled to make it, and that wouldn't be a reason for me to make public posts about her. What I object to is her claims that this is something that women should do, and a part of a 'great tradition'.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. :D I think the tradition, in itself, is pretty stupid but if people want to go along with it then fair play to them.

[duskyfox.livejournal.com]

Things that remind me she's still a minister's daughter.

[lafeelivresque.livejournal.com]

Hello. I am random person whose meandering internet ramblings have led me to your little corner of the web. I think I fell in love somewhere around the Kara Thrace vs Lyn-Z question. I have no concrete answer to that one, but I'm enjoying the comparisons and mental images. So thanks for that one. If I friend you, will you say more things like that?

But to be relevant to this post, I think most of my feelings have already been articulated in earlier comments, but let me ask you this for the sake of playing Devil's advocate: Would it be more palatable for Ashlee to partake in this 'tradition' if it were done more for the added sense of commitment to her new husband rather than consciously perpetuating the ideals of ownership? Don't get me wrong, I'm inherently against the concept of monogamy myself (and marriage to a lesser extent), but I'm all for ridiculous all-encompassing love, which - I think - is what these two are all about. I doubt she meant the tradition to be viewed in such a Draconian context, rather an extension of her declaration of love.

Or, not, I dunno, that's just my view of it.

[fleurrochard]

Oi. *facepalm*

I really like the Hispanic? Spanish? (I'm not quite sure where it all applies) tradition where men and women keep their names after they've married and their children's family name is a combination of their family names (they usually have double names and so you take the first part of the father's family name and the first part of the mother's family name and tadah! New family name for the baby.)

[donnaimmaculata.livejournal.com]

An interesting little tidbit about the Polish language: it is possible to add a suffix to the woman's last name (i.e. her husband's name) to put the name in the feminine form. At the same time, the suffix makes the woman sound like she's the property of the man. In this case it would be "Wentz" - "Wentzowa", the latter basically describing "the female belonging to Wentz". (I assume most Polish speakers don't see it that way, but I cringe every time I hear my Granny refered to by her last name like that.) (This tradition is dying out, though, as far as I can see.)

I also love it when women refer to themselves as "Mr. Peter Wentz" etc.

[georgierae.livejournal.com]

...you had respect for Ashlee Simpson?

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

jjtaylor and i have been talking about bandom and marriage and she pointed me in the direction of some of your posts and hi. i'm phin and i need you on my flist.

[wildestranger.livejournal.com]

Hello! I remember you from HP fandom years ago (by which I mean I remember squeeing over your fic whilst skulking about silently), and I'll admit to having lurked on your journal in bandom as well, so yes, let's be friends!

[ellie-nor.livejournal.com]

O.o

wtf?!

::weeps::